EP #6 | The Truth About the Carnivore Diet With Dr. Anthony Chaffee
In this conversation, Dr. Anthony Chaffee discusses the carnivore diet, emphasizing the dangers of plant toxins and the benefits of a meat-based diet. He shares his personal journey from a traditional diet to adopting a carnivore lifestyle, highlighting the health improvements he experienced. The discussion also touches on the corporate influence on nutrition, the misconceptions surrounding dietary needs, and practical steps individuals can take to improve their health. Dr. Chaffee advocates for a return to a diet that aligns with human biology, focusing on meat and animal products while avoiding processed foods and plant toxins.
To find out more about Dr. Anthony Chaffee, visit his website at https://www.howtocarnivore.com/.
Transcription
Chris Hall (00:50)
Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I have a very special guest today. I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Anthony Chaffee. And he is a big proponent of the carnivore diet. And as you know, I like to talk about wealth and health and wellness in general. And this just seemed like a really good fit because, you know, we live in a society that, you know, we’ve been living by the food pyramid for so long now, and our society has only gotten worse. So
Seems like a back to basics approach seems to be a good choice for that. So with no further ado, let me introduce you. Welcome to the show, Dr. Chaffee.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (01:29)
Not a problem. Thank you for having me.
Chris Hall (01:31)
Yeah, of course. So I’ve obviously seen you on social media. Instagram was where I kind of found you. And I really started watching your stuff and I really enjoyed it. But tell the people that maybe haven’t seen you before kind of how you got going on this and what your accolades are, et cetera.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (01:50)
Well, I’m a medical doctor. I’m originally from the U S but I’ve lived in Europe and now Australia and I’ve always been interested in medicine, but I’ve also played high level sports. I was an all American rugby player. played professionally for years before medical school and as professional as it was in the U S but then I actually played overseas as well. Um, I was always interested in nutrition. I always knew that understood that that was a major part of health.
I mean, it goes back to Hippocrates, let food be thy medicine, medicine thy food. If he actually said that, who knows? But that was something that I was always raised with. My parents were always very, very insistent that the food that you ate mattered and that certain foods could cause disease, things like that. So it was a concept that I was well familiar with. It’s just that we were told sort of the wrong things. And as I started studying this more more and more, I started to realize that the standard recommendations were just getting us.
to where we were, people were listening to this. People can say that, well, only 9 % of people follow the guidelines. Well, only 9 % of people in America follow the guidelines. Well, only 9 % of people in America are diabetic. So there you go. And the thing is, though, is you can see in your own life people around you trying to eat more so-called healthy towards the food pyramid, less meat, less fat, more fruits and vegetables, more whole grains, all that sort of stuff, more fiber.
It’s not helping their health. It’s hurting it. And the people are getting fatter and sicker and we’ve become fatter and sicker than we’ve ever been in human history. And we can see that very, very clearly over the last 40 years, even though the consumption data shows just as clearly that we’ve been eating less meat. We’ve been eating less fat. We’ve been eating more fruits and vegetables and fiber and whole grains and also more sugar and more seed oils, you know, over three times as much. So
I fell into this sort of accidentally because I had a professor that was very clear that plants had toxins, naturally occurring toxins. And we know this as biologists that the plant kingdom makes about a million different defensive chemicals to stop animals and insects from eating them. We have classified them, categorized them, and quantified them. So this isn’t a secret. This isn’t a guess. These are known quantities. And we forget that.
because we’ve been told for decades that these things are just universally healthy. There’s nothing wrong with them. Everything’s better. The more fruits and vegetables you eat, more fruits and that’s all we see here. We eat more fruits and vegetables. We need more which fruits and vegetables, you know, because they’re different and they have different toxins and people that eat, you know, the same, you know, the same thing over and over and over again. They can actually get a buildup in these toxins. Liam Hemsworth, the actor actually put himself in the hospital with acute oxalate poisoning because he was eating
Spinach smoothies every morning for three weeks and he almost killed himself, right? So You know that that’s that’s serious and we need to be able to understand that and respect that so I had a professor who was very clear about this that was a professor of cancer biology during my undergrad at University of Washington and he said very clearly that these plants were toxic they were designed to be toxic by nature and They could also be carcinogenic
Chris Hall (04:47)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (05:13)
a cancer biology class. So he started pointing out that these toxins could cause physiological distress and damage that could later precipitate cancer. a carcinogen and that Brussels sprouts had over 136 identified carcinogens at that time back in 2000, 2001. And that mushrooms had over a hundred that spinach, kale, lettuce, celery, cabbage, cucumber, broccoli, everything, every all the produce items that you’ve ever seen in your life. We were given lists of these things.
Chris Hall (05:29)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (05:42)
as a handout that had a number. had 60, 80, over 100 known carcinogens in them. So this was quite startling. in fact, we knew they were quite abundant too because we worked from Professor Bruce Ames at UC Berkeley back in the late 80s, early 90s, where he basically was defending the pesticide industry.
because we were blaming pesticides for a lot of people getting ill because we radically changed the way we ate in the eighties and people started getting sick. And so everyone says, it must be these pesticides because the vegetables are so good, but there’s these poisons that we put on them. All right. Well, actually, yeah. And so, well, yes, the pesticides we spray on them are poison. I mean, that’s why we spray on them. So it can kill animals and insects trying to our crop. And then we go and eat that same crop. And what do we think is going to
Chris Hall (06:23)
⁓ yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (06:38)
But what we forget is that we don’t have to spray pesticides on forests or fields or nature because the plants make their own pesticides. And so that’s what professor Ames found and showed was that the natural toxins, the natural pesticides and insecticides naturally occurring in the plants outweighed the pesticides that we sprayed on them by a factor of 10,000. So as he said,
Chris Hall (06:46)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (07:04)
99.99 % of the pesticides and insecticides are naturally occurring in the plant. And they were actually worse than the pesticides were spraying on them. He looked at these are all in preclinical trials, so using animal models. And so he found that the toxins found in mushrooms were hundreds of times more likely to cause cancer than the pesticides that they were investigating at the time called ALAR.
And so this is why we still have things like ALR. didn’t ban all these sort of things because he showed that the plants themselves were far more toxic and had far higher prevalence of these toxins than the pesticides were spraying on them. And so that’s what the data showed. What he concluded was, well, since we know fruits and vegetables are so good for you, obviously the pesticides can’t be all that bad.
Right? That is a value judgment that is not borne out by the data. He’d had no data in those studies to say that fruits and vegetables were good for you, pose a positive effect in people’s health, or that these toxins were not toxic to us. What he showed was that there’s 10,000 times more toxins naturally occurring in plants and there are hundreds of times more carcinogenic than known poisons.
Chris Hall (08:02)
So.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (08:31)
We put on plants to knowingly kill animals and insects. So he had a lot of good science, but then he finished it off with a bunch of assumptions, which is, you know, you know, the saying about assumptions. You make an assumption, make an ass out of you and me. So, but this is what people are focusing on. You know, when I, when I speak about that trial, they’ll say, Oh, but you know, he concluded that, know, that they’re still good. Like, yeah, he can conclude whatever the hell he wants. His data showed.
Chris Hall (08:46)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (09:00)
that the plants are way more toxic. And then we had glyphosate and you know, that was after that, that was like in 93 that came in the food supply and that’s 50 times worse. Who knows how much worse it is. And so this wasn’t compared against that. I mean, if these toxins were compared against glyphosate, maybe it wouldn’t stand up the same way, but certainly for the pesticides at the time, like Alar, it was far worse, far worse. And so
Chris Hall (09:14)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (09:29)
That blew me away. And I remember him saying to us that he didn’t eat vegetables or salad. He wouldn’t let his kids eat vegetables or salad because in his words, plants are trying to kill you. Why would you go knowingly go along with this? have known toxins that they are putting there in order to kill, injure and disrupt animals trying to eat them. And you don’t just walk into something like that. You need to understand that and understand what’s going on. I just
Chris Hall (09:52)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (09:58)
completely stopped eating plants at that point. I defaulted into just eating eggs and meat. didn’t think about it as doing a specific diet. just, my entire litmus test was like, is the plant not a chance? That’s, that was it. That was, if it came from a plant, I was not going to eat it. And, you know, mushrooms would be in that too. So plants are fungus and that was it. And I, never felt better in my entire life. I never performed better, played better, had better, you know,
Chris Hall (10:13)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (10:28)
better results scholastically. It was just an absolute night and day difference. When I was playing professionally in England, I sort of slipped off of this. Some of the meat was breaded and I just sort of convinced myself, wow, dose makes the poison. So maybe it’s not all that big of a deal. it’s like, yeah, dose does make the poison, but the dose is really small. It is not much. And that was enough. Just a little bit of breading on some of the chicken a few days a week, that was enough.
Chris Hall (10:46)
Good.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (10:58)
to really curtail my performance and how I felt. I had a lot more inflammation and joint pain, back sore. I was like, what’s going on? What’s wrong with my body? I’m just falling apart. I didn’t have any of this stuff. You get injuries, things like that. But I wasn’t just achy and sore all the time. For years, I mean, for five years, as a high-end athlete, that’s unheard of that you’re not just constantly achy and sore.
Chris Hall (11:15)
to that.
All right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (11:25)
And all of a sudden I was again. So I thought there was something wrong. I thought I was getting injured. thought these little pulled muscles and a pulled groin. I thought there was like some sort of injury that just wasn’t going away. And I might need surgery because like this thing’s just not resolving. It’s just a pulled groin. It was nothing, but it just had this sort of pain lingering on. And I didn’t understand it because it hadn’t been there for so many years.
Chris Hall (11:43)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (11:51)
So I sort of slipped off at that point. That was the worst thing is when you reintroduce something, you’ve convinced yourself that it’s okay. Now you convince yourself that other things are okay as well. And I sort of went back to how I was raised. It was a very meat focused, omnivorous diet. Very clean, never ate processed food, junk food. And that’s the other thing. It’s the only reason that people get benefits by going carnivores because they get rid of all the junk food. I never ate junk food, never eaten junk food more than like one meal every so often.
I mean, think I’ve had Kentucky fried chicken. I could count on one hand how many times I’ve had Kentucky fried chicken. know what I mean? it’s Popeyes, I’d have to count on two hands, you know, still not much. And so, you know, never, never, never was bacon a processed food. And so many other people are coming from clean omnivorous diets, clean keto diets, clean vegetarian or vegan diets and massively improving.
Chris Hall (12:25)
Okay.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Dr Anthony Chaffee (12:47)
when they do this. that’s just a nonsense. And so eating very cleanly, mostly meat, but lean meat, because you’re supposed to eat lean meat, and just eating a salad because you’re supposed to eat a stupid salad. That was basically my diet for another 12 years after that, until I came across information that showed a white hole in the second. Well, humans actually are carnivores. We’ve been apex predators for millions of years. Apex predators, by definition, eat a lot of meat, right? Because they’re apex predators. You don’t need to be a predator.
you don’t get the, you don’t, you’re not a predator of grass or cabbage, right? We’re talking about predating other animals. you know, and that, that’s just our biological history. And if you look at any species, you know, what they, what they should be eating is what they’ve been eating the longest. And that’s what’s should be the most beneficial for them. We, know this for animals in the zoo. We’ve forgotten this with our pets, but we have definitely erased that.
for our own selves. But that made sense to me. I said, hold on a second, that’s what I was doing for five years. I wasn’t eating anything except meat and eggs. I even asked myself, was like, should I be taking a multivitamin or eat a banana every now and then for the vitamins? But I remember thinking to myself, I feel good and my gums aren’t bleeding. So let’s just see what happens. Let’s just ride this out.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
us.
Chris Hall (14:33)
way beyond football. is so cardiovascular intense and so aerobically and aerobically intense. And so the fact that you weren’t eating any sort of carbohydrates during that time, you know, I think that kind of puts to rest that you need them.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (14:48)
yeah, definitely not. No, yes. I always sort of thought about it as endurance sprinting. You know, you have to, just, it’s a dead sprint the whole time and you have to just keep going. You just have to keep sprinting the whole time, especially for my position. played like open side flanker and number eight. that was a, especially then, because now they sort of changed, changed how, how things are played a little bit. But back then, if you were playing number seven or number eight, you had to just be up and down the field, back and forth, just hitting everything all the time. You know, I was, I was making.
more tackles than anybody else on the field by a country mile. I didn’t actually like other people making the tackles. I wanted to hit every single person every time. I’d go smash someone, get up and just go head hunting and just try to get the next guy and the next guy and the next guy. I’d dead sprint to smash somebody, hop up, dead sprint to the next guy and smash them too. That was it. That’s how I played for 90 minutes.
Chris Hall (15:27)
Ha
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (15:48)
And, um, yeah, I do that for years, for years and years. Yeah. And, um, so yeah, as a, as a carnivore for, for five years and, playing at a very high level. And so all the highest levels in North America was playing sort of internationally played in the U S and Canada and England and, you know, various tours and other countries as well for sevens and 15 sevens is even more of a track me.
Chris Hall (15:49)
And for years, and for years too. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (16:17)
because that’s like a same size field, which is actually wider than a, than a standard American football field. It’s, ⁓ it can be 40 to 60 meters wide. ⁓ and so it’s actually can be, be wide as hell. So depending on, on the field and then a hundred meters long, instead of a hundred yards, a bit longer. And in sevens, like normal rugby has 15 players. Sevens is as its name. Just sort of suggests it’s only seven players. So you have the players on the same size field. So it’s just.
wide open space, changes the whole dynamic of the game. So you’re not the same sort of tactics. And you just got one guy and you’ve got all this space. You’ve got to really cover a lot of space and, and they’ve got to cover you too. it’s just a dead sprint the whole time. It’s just like a track meet. So if you, if you needed carbs to do that, that wouldn’t work. And so I played it, you know, ⁓
You know, all the highest levels, know, select sides with the U S is, ⁓ you know, getting it looked at for, you know, selection to the U S national team as well. And, ⁓ you know, sort of just, just on the cusp of that as well. So, you know, if you needed. You know, if you needed carbohydrates to do these sorts of things, it would never have happened.
Chris Hall (17:32)
Well, and I want to mention, I want to go back to like you had mentioned with Liam Hemsworth, like how did they ultimately find out that it was the smoothie that was causing the problems?
Dr Anthony Chaffee (17:47)
⁓ I believe the main, well, you you have different sorts of things. mean, we do know about oxalate poisoning. It’s it, it is, and it’s been actually in the medical literature for hundreds of years. You actually see this going back quite a way. I mean, there’s nutritionists like Adele Davis a hundred years ago who said you never eat raw spinach. In fact, there’s a lot of people for hundreds of years saying you never eat raw produce at all whatsoever because you have to cook it, denature it, you know, cook it, ferment it, mix it with different chemicals like lye.
and all these other sorts of things that denature and lower the toxic load of these plants and make their nutrients more bioavailable. That’s another way plants defend themselves. They just lock up their nutrients and vitamins in ways that we don’t have the enzymes to break down, which is how you know we’re not designed to eat them because we don’t have the machinery to actually extract these nutrients without fermentation or cooking or all these other sorts of things. You can eat raw meat and get absolutely everything out of it.
This was, this has been known for a very long time. It’s only very recently said, we have raw food, this, that, and the other. We’ve never done that. We’ve never done that. you know, and it’s not good to do that. If you are going to eat plants, you need to cook them, you need to ferment them. need to denature them, do the things that we’ve these traditional recipes that go back thousands of years. There’s a reason they exist is because they can lower the toxic load of these, of these plants. And that’s why we prepared them in that way. So spinach, for example,
was never eaten raw ever. Right. well, was recommended never to eat it raw. Anyway, you would poach it in milk and the calcium would leach out the oxalates because oxalates bind to calcium. They can bind other minerals as well. People may know that if you have like rust on the side of your house, get rust stains on your clothes or something like that. You put a little bit of oxalic acid oxalates in the water and, and, and spinach has oxalates in the form of
oxalic acid and so put oxalic acid in water then you scrub or wash the the rust area with with that just strips it right off just you know just comes right off that’s because the oxalic acid binds to the to the iron and just goes away it does that in your body too so it strips out iron from your bloodstream it strips out iron from your food so you can’t absorb it also does with this with calcium there was a study in I think it was 1950s
They gave people and this is the thing you put these things through a mass spectrometer. can see wow spinach has a lot of calcium good source of calcium or is it so they gave a bunch of spinach to people and Check their calcium levels. In fact, their calcium levels went down even though there’s a lot of calcium in spinach That’s because the calcium is not bioavailable It’s bound up in ways that we don’t have the enzymes to break down so we can’t access those nutrients It doesn’t matter if they’re in there. They’re not going to get in here. And that’s the important thing
And it’s also very high in oxalic acid. And so that gets into your bloodstream, causes a lot of damage. can crystallize in these little sharp needle-like projections, which actually damage tissue and like your kidneys and binds to calcium and can strip it out. So now your calcium levels are going down and then you have to leach calcium off your bones in order to keep your serum levels of calcium up because if your calcium levels goes too far down, your heart stops and you die. So it’s better to sacrifice your bones.
Chris Hall (21:11)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (21:13)
than your heart. And so this is well known, well described. learned this. mean, my second year as a doctor, was doing an ER rotation and a young woman came in with kidney stones. I was talking to the, know, attending about this and, and it was just said ask her, she eats a lot of spinach, spinach are really high in oxalates. 75 % of kidney stones are calcium oxalate stones.
And so a lot people eat a ton of spinach because they think it’s healthy. They get these kidney stones and you know, so that’s a very common thing. Right. So, so with Liam, think he had massive, massive kidney stones that ended up having to get surgically resected. So yeah. And, and, people have just flat out died from, from acute oxalate poisoning. That’s in the literature.
Chris Hall (21:59)
Yeah.
So I’m assuming kale is in the same category as spinach. Like that’s another like real standard for the smoothies and the juicers and stuff like that.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (22:16)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, the funny thing about kale is there’s all sorts of different toxins in kale, tons. And, you know, oxalates are one of them, but there’s so many more. mean, you know, plants just don’t use one toxin at a time. They can use, they can use dozens or hundreds or thousands, right? So there’s a lot for them to choose from. Some of them going to be much more prevalent than others. So you have the nightshade family, potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, peppers. These have, you know, they’re more, they’re called solanaceous.
So they have more solanine and lectins which are another plant top category of plant toxin. There’s thousands of different kinds of lectins. That’s a category and And they can cause a lot of damage. I mean, this is you know, Belladonna deadly nightshade tobacco These are these are examples of the nightshade family But potatoes tomatoes eggplants peppers. These are nightshades But they’re new world nightshades, you know, you go back to Roman times. They’re like never eat nightshades. These are bad You don’t eat nightshades
nightshades are toxic. And then when the European, you know, colonists and explorers came to America, they found there was there was agriculture in certain areas, it wasn’t completely widespread over both continents. That’s a myth. People say, well, people were eating potatoes in very select areas. That was not that was not broadly broadcast over the entire entirety of both continents. So in those areas like Mesoamerica, which is where this was thought to originate,
They did eat these things and they noticed them and they were like, Whoa, they’re eating nightshades. What the hell is that? And they brought those back as curiosities as just like, look at this weird ass plant. mean, think about it. Tomato is a weird ass looking plant. Like that’s not, it’s not a normal plant. And so it wasn’t a very normal European plant. They brought that back as a curiosity. Look at this strange plant. we, you know, we keep, you know, rhododendrons and other sort of highly toxic plants because we think they’re pretty. Um, but you don’t eat them. They’re, they’re a decoration, right?
Chris Hall (23:47)
Thank
Thanks
Dr Anthony Chaffee (24:10)
And then they started noticing, well, these people are eating these things actually, you know, it’s usually out of necessity, you know, the wealthy would could afford meat. So they would eat meat. But you know, other people’s that, you know, maybe not, could not afford this, but, ⁓ but they did in very specific ways. You know, did you notice that up until like the two thousands, no one ate potatoes unless they were peeled. You got a baked potato, people gut out the inside of it and usually leave the skin.
And then all of a sudden, you know, TGI Fridays came out with potato skins and that became like a, you know, like a thing you could order. And it was like loaded up with like cheese and sour cream and bacon. They’re like, potato skins aren’t that bad. Those are throwaway items. They used to, they used to toss those out because they were no good because that’s where that’s barrier protection. That’s where majority of these lectins and toxins and solanine is. Right. So it’s, from the beginning, we would peel these things because that’s what the natives did.
Chris Hall (24:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (25:06)
You peel them off. would only be ripe. If they got green, wouldn’t touch them because they had exposed to air or sunlight. So all of a sudden, they’re sitting that. they get green because they start making chlorophyll. But that triggered the plant to say, hey, we’re exposed. Something can eat us. We need to be more poisonous. start upping the toxicity of the potato. Or if the root starts growing through, I’m sure your mom told me.
told you my mom did anyway, you have to cut out the eye can’t just cut off the root, you have to cut out the whole eye or just throw the whole thing out because it’s much more toxic at that level, right? And so we learned this from the natives. We use this up until literally, you know, 20 years ago, I remembered this TGI Friday came out with potato skins. They’re like, no one had potato skins. That was the thing that like in the back of the restaurant.
Chris Hall (25:34)
Yeah.
right?
Dr Anthony Chaffee (25:59)
When they would have these potato skins, were like, sure, just throwing them away. So, so people like worked in the restaurant, in the kitchen, they just sort of, they’d cook, prepare them for themselves because it was just, they were going to throw it away otherwise. And they started saying like, well, these are actually pretty good. So why don’t we sell these to people? And, and, and then everyone said,
Chris Hall (26:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, my grandparents,
my grandparents had a restaurant and we did twice baked potatoes, which was basically where you take the potato out and then you kind of mixture it with cheese and sour cream and stuff like that and put it back in the potato skin. So, but I mean, I think still people really in general didn’t eat the skins. I mean, some people did because they eat everything, but even then it was more of like, it was just sort of a display item than it was an actual food item.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (26:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And, and that there’s a reason for that is because there was more toxins in the skin. And so, and, and this is, this is why, mean, in the Navy, I mean, if you had, if you’ve gotten trouble, you were, you were two weeks peeling potatoes. You know, that was, that was the thing. And so the, then pota tomatoes, you know, made tomato sauce. we’ll be using that for centuries. Well, really it only came, it’s a new world plant.
Chris Hall (26:44)
Yeah.
Right? True.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (27:05)
So you’re talking about how this is a traditional food of Italy and Spain. It’s not actually, it’s only a couple hundred years old because that’s, they’ve only had tomatoes for a couple hundred years in Europe. And, they did in a very specific way. And the traditional way of making it right now is you only take vine ripened tomatoes because when they’re picked green, they have high, much higher toxicity. Even when they’re ripened in the box studies have shown that that toxicity doesn’t go anywhere. It’s as close system. can’t, can’t go anywhere. The plant has to pull it out.
Chris Hall (27:15)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (27:35)
They don’t just dissolve into just harmless materials. Those toxins stay there. And this is why in my lifetime, it was said that you don’t eat green tomatoes, green tomatoes are poisonous. And then the movie Fried Green Tomatoes came out, it’s just an old wives tale, it’s not that big a deal. But that was for hundreds of years, don’t eat green tomatoes, they’re harmful. So they vine ripen them, they blanch them in water to
Chris Hall (27:56)
All
Dr Anthony Chaffee (28:04)
Take the skin off then they take the seeds out and then they boil the living hell out of the pulp that’s left That’s what you do. That’s that’s that’s tomato sauce and that’s how they would eat tomato They weren’t just eating tomatoes like apples or chopping up and putting it in a fresh salad It was done that way to make a sauce and this skin had the more toxins its barrier protection and the seeds most importantly Are the plants baby and everything protects babies more than anything. So it’s seeds beans legumes
Chris Hall (28:08)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (28:34)
grains, nuts, all these things are the plant’s baby. This is when you typically find the highest concentration of toxins. So they had to take that stuff out. Then they had the pulp that was left over, was vine ripened, so it at least had some reduction in the toxin and you boil the living hell out of it. Lactins can be heat sensitive and you can get a lot of them out, not necessarily all of them, but a lot of them out through heat exposure. So these are the things that we did to lower these toxic load. Sorry, I went on about…
30 tangents there, but you’re talking about kale. So kale, the interesting thing about kale is that this only showed up on the scene in about 2015. And that’s because there was a lady, owned a, I don’t know if she’s, anyway, she’s on the East coast. She owned a marketing firm and she just decided one day, I’m going to make kale thing. And so she got Beyonce to wear a t-shirt or a sweatshirt. And one of her videos that said kale with like the letters like from Yale.
Chris Hall (29:04)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (29:29)
You know, they went to like Kale University and things like that. see people, you know, see, you know, rejects wearing this thing every now and then, you know, with that stupid shirt. But, um, uh, doing that and then getting people to talk about it and like getting it in, you know, high end fancy restaurants in Manhattan and elsewhere is like, kale, kale, kale. And I had this ad campaign. like different talk shows and morning shows. Ooh, kale, kale is the new thing. They’re being paid to do this. This is a marketing effort. Right. And then it’s
Chris Hall (29:30)
⁓ yeah.
it.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (29:59)
sort of grew on its own. And but it was like 2015. I hadn’t even heard of a plant called kale before 2015. And that’s what it is. Very interestingly, the number one purchaser and buyer of kale prior to this was actually Pizza Hut. And it was not to use for any food substance. It was used to line the outside of the salad bar, not
For the salad, just to line the salad bar to make it look all green and fresh and things like that. You don’t eat that crap. So it’s like yard yard waste. Yeah. So they were the, they were the major purchasers. And the thing was that we tried to actually feeding kale to livestock. ⁓ but they had to stop because it was so toxic. So they used to give kale to sheep and it started causing stillbirths, birth defects, growth.
Chris Hall (30:28)
⁓ yeah, yeah!
You remember that. Yeah.
All
Dr Anthony Chaffee (30:57)
you know, birth deformities, they’ll get very sick. They get goiters. Goiter is an enlarged thyroid because it’s dysfunctional and it’s, it’s trying in your brain sending a lot of thyroid stimulating hormone down to your thyroid. It’s like, need to make more thyroid, but it can’t produce it. So it’s, it’s growing big, big, big, big, because it’s trying really hard, but it’s not actually able to produce any thyroid hormone because of these, they’re called goitrogens. They cause goiters and Kales full of them.
Chris Hall (31:24)
my god.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (31:25)
So it’s an entire category of plant toxins called goitrogens and kale is full of them. So this was causing massive goiters. It was killing the babies. They were getting congenital hypothyroidism, which can be very serious deformities, mental retardation in humans and animals and death. I’ve seen pictures of these poor little things, these lambs being born dead with a goiter the size of their head, which is this big.
Chris Hall (31:53)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (31:53)
things sticking
out and people can look up a goiter G O I T R E on the internet. Look for pictures of that. It’s quite confronting this big lump there. so I say, okay, well, we can’t do that because the thing is, livestock, that’s money, right? You start killing animals, know, that doesn’t work. Okay, that stops. you give it to people, people are basically worthless. And so it doesn’t matter. Just give it to them all they want. We’re selling it to them.
Chris Hall (32:03)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (32:21)
the end product doesn’t matter if they grow up well, but you have specific end points. if those animals don’t get healthy and to wait and they’re not having kids, you’re losing money. whole enterprise is losing money. So that has to stop. So they look at this very closely and you can have actually very, very clear randomized controlled trials with thousands and thousands and thousands of individuals that are closely related and separate them and do one thing differently and see the results. We actually have quite
Human nutritional sciences are joke. Animal nutritional sciences are extremely robust. So we gave kale to sheep, disaster. So we stopped doing that, started giving kale to dairy cows because they really require a ton of feed to make the amount of milk that that means. Sometimes you do like upwards of a hundred gallons of milk in a day per cow. So it’s a lot of milk that they’re producing. So you need a lot of feed.
they started giving that to dairy cows and the milk from the dairy cows were giving the people who drank it goiters. So they had to stop that too. So goitrogenic. And so they just said, okay, we can’t give it to sheep. can’t give it to cows because you know, can’t give it to sheep because it kills the sheep. Can’t give it to cows because the, you know, the milk causes goiters and people. So screw it. Just give it to people. know,
Chris Hall (33:40)
Let’s let
Beyonce sell it to people.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (33:43)
Well, that’s it. know, because the thing is,
like that’s why no one ate kale wasn’t fed animals and the major purchaser of it was Pizza Hut. Right. And then this, this lady, you know, had this sort of vegan bent and just, just wanted to push kale. She just wanted to make it a thing. And whether she was being paid to her or not, I don’t know. But, but that was where that came from. But it’s a, it’s a highly toxic plant. It’s not something you actually want to eat.
Chris Hall (33:53)
I love that.
Yeah.
So what about like we talked about a little bit of a smoothies right and the oxalates and stuff like that So what about like places like where you go and get your cold pressed juice or like I don’t know much about juice But I just know like there’s juice and now there’s cold pressed juice since but I mean typically the major categories are like kale spinach things like that and then they use fruit to like make it taste so you can actually drink it which is one of the reasons I’ve always sort of stayed away from it, but anyway, tell me what you think about juice
Dr Anthony Chaffee (34:37)
Well, you think about it, if you juice a plant, if you juice those vegetables and you don’t put in something sweet like fruit or just straight up sweeteners and sugars and things like that, it tastes awful. It is absolutely ghastly how bitter and awful it is. Why do we think that we have that natural instinct to abhor the taste of something that is good for us? Why would we be designed to hate?
the taste of something that’s good for us. Now things can taste good because they’re very clever scientists that have taken advantage of something called evolutionary traps, which we have this little signal of this thing that, ooh, that’s a good thing. We want to eat that. They take that. They magnify it. They change that. You ever seen this thing as natural flavorings? There’s nothing natural about them. They’re mimicking natural flavors. So it’s this litany of chemicals that taste kind of like orange. That’s what they mean by natural flavors. Is it?
Chris Hall (35:24)
Thanks, Matt.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (35:36)
taste natural, tastes like something you would find in nature as opposed to, you know, like a Coke or something like that. It’s just its own thing. ⁓ it doesn’t mean there’s anything natural in there. And so that, that’s something that really fools people. it’s natural flavors. So it’s gotta be natural. Well, first of all, arsenic is natural. Those goitrogens and kale are natural. So natural is not, the, the bar you want to, you want to set this by, but there’s nothing natural about them. So, I mean, you can even see it on 60 minutes.
Chris Hall (35:38)
and
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (36:05)
um, a while ago and they were interviewing these food scientists and they say, yeah, what we do is we, we isolate these, these little chemical compounds. give this, you know, good, this tastes good signal. And then we change it and modify it. So it gives it even bigger taste response and it goes away really quickly. So you want the next chip, the next bite, the next drink. Right. So it causes compulsion. You compulsively eat. So we have very clever food scientists that are making things taste good that shouldn’t, but
Chris Hall (36:26)
Thanks
Dr Anthony Chaffee (36:35)
If something tastes bad, that’s a pretty good indication that your body’s trying to warn you against eating it. Deer don’t go around eating the shitty tasting leaves, right? Pahualas aren’t sitting there going like, I don’t want to this anymore. They love it. They enjoy it. They ever seen a cow come out on like really fresh green grass? Their eyes are bugging out of their head and they’re just chopping away at it. They’re really, really happy that they’re eating this stuff. And so it doesn’t taste bitter to them. If it did, they wouldn’t eat it.
Chris Hall (36:44)
Okay.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (37:04)
because that would be an indication that that could kill them. Even cows. I cows eat grass and plants their entire lives. And they’re very healthy doing that, but that’s, but they only eat very specific plants because other plants will kill them too. And their entire, there’s an entire field of veterinary medicine that talks about this sort of stuff. All these different diseases like big head, big tongue, limp neck, crazy cow syndrome. Those are all names of diseases.
that these livestock animals can get, but it’s well known and described that this is actually caused by eating the wrong plant and becoming toxic from that plant, right? And so the treatment is getting the hell away from that plant. You have certain plants are in there, you take them out, you pick them, you get them the hell out of there. Normally they won’t really eat them, but if it’s like a younger cat doesn’t really know that, what’s this? It’s new, take a bite of it and that’s enough. They get very sick or they die, you know? And so, you know, that’s well known and yet we…
Chris Hall (37:43)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (38:02)
we forget that or we’ve had that forgotten for us that these plants have toxins and those toxins can cause a problem.
Chris Hall (38:14)
So is there like, I mean, I feel like I’m loading the question up, but is there like any like juices that people should be drinking?
Dr Anthony Chaffee (38:23)
Well, yeah, I mean, meat juice, know, Messiah drink blood that works really well for them. They’re healthy as hell. Uh, you know, average six foot three, six foot four adult male height. That’s hell of lot taller than anybody else around. Um, post agriculture, pre agriculture, that’s par for the course, you know, and, uh, there’s a, there’s a, well, in some areas we can go back far enough, you know, especially when they’re like hunting mammoths and things like that. They were like six, two, six, three, six, four average. And, um,
Chris Hall (38:41)
Yes.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (38:54)
And there’s a study that was published in 2000, 2001, called tallest in the world. And they looked at original source material of actually study that was done in the late 1800s with the native Americans and the great planes. They found that the people in the great planes who traditionally were eating a bunch of bison and wild game, because they could eat bison the entire year, the bison herds would come through. They’d scare.
portion of those over a cliff, they’d all crash and burn. They’d have food for the year. They’d dry it up and make pemmican and it was a high fat mixture. They’d take all the fat that they had and sometimes, you know, they would waste the lean, but they wouldn’t waste the, or not waste, but you know, they wouldn’t use the lean, but they would always use the fat. And so they’d mix up this dried powdered meat and they’d mix it up with rendered fat.
And, ⁓ and that would make it two grams of fat to one gram of protein. So it’s actually 80 % calories from fat and they would eat this the entire year. And so they were very, very healthy with this. didn’t get any of the chronic diseases that Europeans got and they were way taller. So in the late 1800s, they looked at this and they looked at the people in the great plains. found that as a toll, as a whole, the people in the great plains were the tallest human beings alive on earth. And in fact, in some places like the Cheyenne, they were even taller than that.
And so they were on average five foot 10 adult male height and where as the European stock were down, you know, five, five, five, four, you know, were less. And now it’s five eight in America. Average adult male height is five eight. You have like Netherlands. might be like five, 10, five, 11, depending on what you look at. but the really interesting thing is that they eat a lot of meat in, in, ⁓ Denmark, but the really interesting thing about that study.
Is that in that original source data, it said that the older generations of the Cheyenne and Plains Indians that they, that they were measuring their height of to make the average that like the grandfathers and great grandfathers, they were way taller than the fathers and the sons. And so they said, if they’d done this study 50 years ago, a hundred years ago, that average would be way higher than five, 10. And that’s because.
when they did that study, that was already after the bison had been wiped out and they were put on reservations. So this was, you’re looking at the transition point, the inflection point from pre-agricultural society to a post-agricultural society, and they shrank immediately, and they’ve continued to shrink since then, and started getting all these chronic diseases that we get in Western countries, and they’re actually much more prevalent because they’re genetically predisposed to them because they haven’t had 10,000 years of agriculture.
Chris Hall (41:31)
All
Dr Anthony Chaffee (41:42)
in their past. Mesoamerica, sure, not in the Great Plains of North America. so our European ancestors and other places around the world, agriculture came up independently in about seven points around the world at different times. if you’re not descended from one of those people, then you’re not going to have the genetic adaptation, at least partially, with these toxins.
Chris Hall (41:44)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (42:11)
for, um, you for the last several thousand years. So they’re getting hit with this right in the face. And I mean, I was told this, I mean, it was on the news when I was a kid. I remember hearing this and it really confused me because it said when eating a Western diet, native Americans are four times as likely to get, um, all the chronic diseases we get, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmunity, all the rest. And I remember thinking to myself, like, well, doesn’t that mean the food is causing the disease? Because we eat the food and we eat, we get the disease. We just get it at a lower rate.
Chris Hall (42:34)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (42:39)
And if they don’t eat the food, they don’t get the disease. You know, we get, we get this too. So, you know, what were they eating that we, we weren’t vice versa. What’s a Western diet? What the hell did that mean? Well, no one said it at the time, but they were carnivores. They were just eating meat. weren’t eating a lot of plants, if any. And so, ⁓ this is well described in current anthropological textbooks and papers that. Free agricultural society is alive right now.
Chris Hall (42:42)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (43:08)
do not get any chronic diseases or any problems like that. And they absolutely live as long or longer than we do in the West. If they die of old age, if they get past infancy really, because there’s a high infant mortality rate. So they say, well people die in their sixties. Well, people are getting heart attacks in their twenties and thirties now. So that’s not saving anybody. And so if it was a meat that was causing this, we should be seeing them getting heart attacks, them too. They don’t, they don’t get any of these chronic disease. we’re just living so long that we get these chronic diseases.
Chris Hall (43:25)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (43:36)
No, 10 year olds are getting type 2 diabetes, 17 year olds are having heart attacks, 26 year olds are having strokes. No, this is not the case.
Chris Hall (43:43)
I’m.
Well, and then I mean, you can’t. I’m
sorry, you kind of mentioned like, you know, like, they’re trying to always feed the cows and the sheep, they’re starting to feed this stuff. I’ve noticed, like, one of the things that I kind of dawned on me a while ago was like, you know, this like lends itself to the grass fed industry, you know, the pasture raised chickens and stuff like that was like, well, it’s not good for me to eat soy and corn and flour and all the things rice. Like, why are you giving it to the animal that I’m going to eat?
And then we now know that that’s not good for them either. like, you know, people say, it’s so expensive for grass fed. And it’s like, well, it is if you go to like, the most expensive market and try to get out of your butcher. like, if you find the local guy who’s growing, you know, cattle or whatever, they’re usually pretty reasonable. You just might have to order a half a cow or something. So I mean, what do think about that?
Dr Anthony Chaffee (44:14)
It’s not good for them either.
Yeah.
⁓ absolutely. And, and, we miss the thing, you know, when, when any animal eats what it’s not designed to eat, can have problems, either not getting the requisite nutrition, or it’s going to be exposed to these, these toxins. You know, we put cows in feedlot because it, it, causes, you know, ⁓ insulin resistance and diabetes and fat deposition, because as you eat carbohydrates, your insulin goes up and that, and in fact, and insulin is the fat storage hormone. So the higher your insulin goes, the more fat you store in your muscles.
subcutaneous tissue around your organs in your organs. You know, we wonder about non-alcoholic fatty liver disease that just sort of showed up since the 90s and we’re like, oh, what’s going on here? There’s always alcoholics before this. And it’s just like, okay, well, how do you get it in a duck? You know, how do you make foie gras? You stick a tube down their throat and you pour in grains, right? So people are pouring grains down their own throat. They don’t even need a feeding tube. And we wonder.
Chris Hall (45:18)
Sorry.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (45:29)
We wonder what’s going on. Well, you have high insulin you’re gonna get you’re gonna get fat deposition throughout your body get myosteatosis Which is fatty deposition inside the muscles. I mean a bodybuilder say you need carbs to bulk up No, you’re eating carbs and yes, you could put glycogen and pull water into your muscle as well, but that’s not muscle But you’re also depositing fat you’re getting myosteatosis when you see this on MRI. That’s why it has a name myosteatosis
And myosteatosis is strongly associated with severe metabolic dysfunction and chronic disease and, um, and all sorts of other problems, pain. You know, if you have myosteatosis down the paraspinal muscles, when you see that on, on a spinal MRI, that’s a much higher association with back pain. And I saw a, um, at a conference of spinal surgery, they discussed that and they said, if you’re, if you’re evaluating a patient for, um, know, a fixation,
you know, fusing the spine because they’re in a whole bunch of pain, all that sort of stuff. If they have myosteatosis, lot of myosteatosis in those muscles, they have very, very, very poor outcomes as far as pain is concerned. It almost never cures their pain. So there’s something else, there’s metabolic issues there, but that’s myosteatosis. That comes from carbohydrates. And in cows, we call that marbling. And how do we get marbling? We give them a whole bunch of grains and that raises their insulin and you get…
Chris Hall (46:34)
Thank
That’s perfect.
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (46:50)
fat deposition in the muscles. Like this is not new. We know this, we do this, we utilize this to our advantage from a culinary perspective. it’s, you know, we’re doing it to ourselves and we have no idea. we don’t know why someone has myosteatosis. We see as association with people who are metabolically sick. Yeah, because carbs make you metabolically sick. And it also causes you to deposit fat. But yeah, so you know, you don’t and wagyu. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Hall (47:13)
Well, like wagyu. You know, wagyu is
to be like, it’s supposed to be the premium cut of meat, but it’s because they give it beer and grain like nonstop.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (47:19)
and
That’s
it. And we’re eating pizza and beer and we wonder why we’re fat, you know, but it’s vegetarian and obviously, you know, it’s low fat, everything’s fine. You know, it’s a, we’ve just been, we have just been completely fooled by the food and drug companies who have just been telling us for decades that fat is the enemy, is the enemy because it protects their products because their processed food products are what we’re destroying people’s health.
Chris Hall (47:29)
Sure thing.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (47:51)
And they were like, well, can’t have that. And so they paid off a bunch of people to make people look in the other direction. And this is not a guess. This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a published fact. The Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA, one of the top medical journals in the world, they published actual internal memos in 2016, actual internal memos from the sugar companies back in the 60s and beyond.
detailing how they were paying off professors from Harvard and elsewhere to falsify data and publish fraudulent studies to make it appear as if cholesterol caused heart disease when it’s much more likely to be sugar. There’s a big debate going on for decades about whether it’s cholesterol or sugar. And one of those professors from Harvard was named head of the USDA. And he was the one who authored and published the USDA declaration in the late seventies saying that cholesterol causes heart disease, end of story. And that changed everything. And so we stopped eating
Chris Hall (48:47)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (48:50)
fatty meat, we’d been seeking and searching for and going after since humans have been humans because now it was causing a disease that had never existed prior to that century in any real numbers. Do you know that the first confirmed death from a heart attack in America proven on autopsy was in 1912?
Chris Hall (49:14)
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (49:15)
And did you know that in 1920s, it became the number one killer in America and we were eating less meat in the 1920s when we were in 1912. And we were eating the, in fact, in the 1920s and 30s, we’re eating the least amount of meat in 200 years of American history. So prior to that, we were eating far more meat.
Chris Hall (49:27)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (49:40)
far more fat, butter and lard. Seed oils didn’t exist. Crisco didn’t exist before and that came on the market in 1911. That was a machine lubricant that was developed by the German military to lubricate their U-boats and tanks. And then Procter and Gamble bought the technology of hydrogenating vegetable oils and seed oils and just said, yeah, we can just feed this to people. You know, and they’ll just eat it, you know, it’s like, and it was absolutely mad. just, you know, they
Chris Hall (49:54)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (50:10)
It’s the funniest thing. You even have it now. We have this thing called grass generally recognized as safe. And so the FDA doesn’t even look at it. Well, it’s grass. So don’t worry about it. They don’t decide what’s generally recognized as safe or not. The industry gets to put their own label on it and they say, yeah, well, this is generally recognized as safe. So don’t worry about it, FDA. No problem, guys. You’re all so good saving us work. That’s insane.
Chris Hall (50:20)
Yeah.
Wow.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (50:37)
This is a regulatory body
Chris Hall (50:38)
Yeah
Dr Anthony Chaffee (50:38)
that is in theory there to protect people, but no, they’re actually protecting corporate interests because they get 66 % of their budget from those corporate corporations. And people don’t know that, but that’s actually the case. then there’s this revolving door. People that are high up in the FDA do all these little deals for drug companies, food and drug companies. As soon as they finish at the FDA, bam, they’re on some executive board somewhere getting paid millions.
by that company that they were making billions for. It’s an absolute con game. the fact that these industries are allowed to say what’s generally recognized as safe or not is absurd. And so they basically get to put anything into our food supply, anything, any additive, any this, any, know, both there, all that sort of nonsense. We just said, nah, it’s fine. Don’t worry about it.
Chris Hall (51:05)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (51:31)
How do you know that? Did we test it at all? We didn’t test Crisco. That was never shown to be safe. But it’s heart healthy and the American Heart Association supports it says it’s heart healthy. So obviously they wouldn’t just say that, would they? Except that the American Heart Association is a private organization. I believe it was like five cardiologists and now heart disease is becoming so prevalent. They’re like, we should probably have a society for this one disease that never existed before. And so they made the American Heart Association.
Chris Hall (51:45)
Right.
Alright.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (52:02)
It’s a very obscure little group, a couple guys playing D &D in their basement or something like that. It was just like it was not, it was a very obscure sort of group, but they were the first ones to do it. And all of a sudden they blew up to national prominence because they got this huge influx of money, of cash. And that was because Procter and Gamble paid them the equivalent of $20 million in today’s currency to just…
Chris Hall (52:08)
Thanks.
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (52:30)
Make a blanket statement saying that Crisco and vegetable oils, polyunsaturated fats were heart healthy and good for your heart. And that butter and lard and animal fats bad for your heart based on no evidence. There was no study. There was no science. There was no data. There wasn’t even like a survey. It was nothing. It was purely there. Just a statement. And that launched them to national prominence. They were able to, to.
Chris Hall (52:38)
Great.
Yeah.
you
Dr Anthony Chaffee (53:00)
to do whatever
they wanted. they have their origins in fraud and being bribed. And that didn’t stop there. Okay, well now we got it. So we’ll do it right this time. No, they don’t. They don’t do that. They are known to have been paid off by the sugar companies and the processed food companies multiple times after that. They misrepresented the Framingham study, which I was taught in medical school. Almost every medical professional was taught and there you go.
Chris Hall (53:05)
Right.
Right.
Thanks for watching.
was a pharmaceutical rep for 10 years. That was huge for
us too.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (53:29)
Yeah. So
the, the, the Framingham study, is, which is an epidemiological study. It’s a perspective cohort study, not an interventional trial, not a perspective interventional trial. You’re just following a bunch of people and seeing what happens and trying to make some, some, you know, correlations with things. And, ⁓ what I was taught, I’m sure what you were taught and then taught people was that increased cholesterol was associated with higher, all, you know, cardiovascular disease mortality rate and then vice versa. Lower was lower.
but that’s actually not what it found. The actual original, Framingham study actually showed the opposite that as you lowered total cholesterol, car or cardiovascular disease, mortality rates went up. And, that was what was the original data. And then the American heart association misrepresented that and came out and said, Ooh, look at the Framingham study. It showed the cholesterol going up is associated with.
cardiovascular disease. Now correlation is not causation, but there isn’t even a correlation. And so they lied. Two years later, they published that and that’s what people, that’s what got into the textbooks and that’s what got into, to our classrooms. ⁓ that has since been published since by these, by, Ravens’ cough at all. They actually showed that the original data did not show that, that that that’s been published in the last 10 years, that that was completely misrepresented.
Chris Hall (54:54)
So, so
like, I’m aware of this too, because again, I like lived, I sold Lipitor, which was like, you know, the number one prescribed statin at the time. And we had a little cube that showed like as your blood pressure went up and your cholesterol went up, your heart disease went up with this little, you know, cube that we had to hand people and, and I mean, we know it’s not true now. You know what I mean? We know it’s not true. And yet I still go to my doctor and he still says your cholesterol is too high. You need to be on a statin. And I think
Like, how do we, how do this information still not make it to them? And then when you tell them like, hey, there’s a study or there’s a guy or whatever, they look at you like, well, you’re just getting internet. You’re, you’re going to an internet doctor. You know, it’s like, they don’t take it serious, but I’m like, well, it’s still studies.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (55:30)
Well, you know, you, yeah.
Hmm. Hmm.
Yeah, well tell me, yeah just
Dr Anthony Chaffee (55:44)
Cool, what’s going on there? Don’t know what happened there. Can you hear me all right?
Chris Hall (55:49)
Yeah, you drop for a second. So.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (55:52)
Okay. So yeah, well, you know, that’s the funny thing is that, our, education system and medicine and otherwise are, is, is completely controlled by the food and drug companies completely. And, and so after post-graduation it is as well. So, you when you’re going to a residency, this is dictated by the drug companies and things like that. And that’s how we’re taught. Here’s a problem. Here’s a pill. And it’s just a matching game.
Chris Hall (56:20)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (56:22)
You know, yeah, you have this problem or you have this problem. You know, ramipril. It’s just like, that’s all there is, you know, and you have, okay, you start with, you know, an ACE inhibitor and then you go to a, you know, this and this and this and you go down the list on all these different sorts of things to try to fix the problem with a drug. Well, these problems didn’t come about because they had you know, a deficiency there, you know, like cholesterol is not a statin deficiency. High blood pressure is not a ramipril deficiency. Diabetes is not a metformin deficiency.
Chris Hall (56:23)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (56:52)
You know, these are not caused by a deficiency in something. Some things are. Hypothyroidism. You get your thyroid removed, you just need to take thyroid, right? You have type 1 diabetes if you destroyed your beta cells, your beta islet cells, you know, will need to use an appropriate amount of insulin. There are issues that are like that, but we’ve been fooled into thinking they’re all like that.
Chris Hall (57:20)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (57:21)
So we have these problems and now there’s a new problem. Now there’s that problem. Why is it a new problem? Why didn’t this problem ever come before? Well, it’s just one of those things. Let’s try to find a drug. These smart people have figured out a drug for it. It didn’t exist 20 years ago. So why don’t we instead, instead of looking for a drug to fix this problem that never existed before, why don’t we try to figure out what changed to cause the problem in the first place? Wouldn’t that be smarter?
Chris Hall (57:37)
Right.
All right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (57:48)
And so, but the problem is we don’t get taught like that. We don’t get taught to think like that. My great grandfather was, he was still to date the youngest ever graduate from Columbia Medical School. was 20 years old. And that was in the late 1800s. He was the second class at Columbia ever taught sterile practice. This was five years after anesthesia came on market. So he was on the ground floor of modern surgery where you could actually ethically open up the thorax and the abdomen.
And, ⁓ and without killing them and just being a torturous event and, and killing them with almost guaranteed sepsis. And, ⁓ you know, that’s how they, approach things then. Okay. How w what happened? How do we figure out what’s going on? And then we have this complete change in, how we, you know, we had things started becoming corporatized and you’ll pharmaceuticals and then you just started getting, ⁓ drugs that were just, you know, they figured out.
that, that, knows exactly when this happened, but there was a point where the drug companies figured out that, you know, just make a drug that just fixes something and alleviates pain or whatever. If you get something that like the birth control pill, for example, you can give this to them and then they just take it. They just keep taking it and keep taking and keep taking and keep taking and keep taking it. You make a lot more money and
Chris Hall (58:59)
Right.
Thank you.
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (59:13)
If
you now are just treating things more chronic’s point of view, you’re not trying to cure anything. You’re not trying to get rid of anything. You’re just trying to treat a symptom and you treat those symptoms for the rest of their life. Then you have a customer for life. It’s drug dealer 101. You have to cook them early and then you keep them forever. so there was a leaked set of missives from Goldman Sachs and they said,
Chris Hall (59:32)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (59:41)
curing someone of a disease a viable business model? answer is of course no. You know, because you don’t want to cure anybody of a disease. You want to treat the disease so that they can live with that disease for the rest of their life. And that’s a very, very lucrative situation. And so you’re just treating people like chattel. You know, you’re just something you can enslave and just make money on for the rest of their life, which is a sick sort of slave master sort of mentality.
Chris Hall (59:46)
.
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:00:10)
And
Chris Hall (1:00:10)
I
love that analogy. think that’s a very, very right on analogy. We beholden to our corporate overlords. You know, we’re paying a third of our money to a half of our money in taxes and the rest goes to the corporations and maybe we have a little bit left over.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:00:20)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.
Yeah. I’m paying for all these drugs and things like that. I mean, you know, people go into bankruptcy for their medical expenses and things like that. And a lot of these things you don’t need, you know, this is your lifestyle issues. Do you change your lifestyle? You change your diet and your lifestyle, not in the ways that they suggest, because the way that they suggest keeps you fat, sick and unhealthy and on their medications.
Chris Hall (1:00:35)
F.
Right.
Right. And I and I I would we are at an hour so I want to be respectful of your time but I think a great way to end this would be and I could talk to you for hours I mean especially this this topic is so good to me so interesting to me as well but a great way to end it would be like what are like some like like maybe three or four things that someone could do like today that would sort of ultimately change the way that their trajectory of health goes.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:01:18)
Well, you eat just more closely to our biological design. We have a biological design. mean, there’s a reason that there are signs at the park saying, you know, don’t feed bread to the ducks because it gives them diabetes. If gives a duck diabetes, what do you think it’s doing to you? Signs in the zoo say don’t feed the animals because, you know, if they don’t eat their natural diet, they get very sick. What do they get sick with? They get obesity, heart disease, liver disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmunity, arthritis, and osteoporosis.
Chris Hall (1:01:34)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:01:47)
You know, we know that for animals and yet we have been blinded to that fact for ourselves. And so just go back to that, think about, what have humans been eating for as long as humans have been humans? It’s meat. You know, we’ve had an agricultural revolution and that revolutionized the way we ate. If we were eating a bunch of plants before that, it wouldn’t be much of a revolution, would it? And right after that, the height, health and brain size of people dropped dramatically.
Chris Hall (1:02:08)
⁓
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:02:15)
dropped on average five inches of height, 11 % brain size for men, 17 % average brain capacity for women, and teeth got crooked and rotten. We had signs of poor wound healing and chronic disease. We do not see that in pre-agricultural societies. Even post-agriculture in pre-agricultural societies, we don’t see that. It’s the food. It wasn’t like just some sort of cataclysm. Just God came down and went, you’re sick now.
You know, it was just those populations that started eating plants. And we saw this in real time with the Native Americans, the Australian Aboriginals, and other, know, the Maasai and others and Inuit. In the last century, we saw this, you know, the height of these three generations and the tallest in the world study showed that the older generations were taller. And then the, grandfathers were the tallest, the fathers were next and the children were shortest, right?
Chris Hall (1:03:07)
Thank
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:03:12)
We were seeing that right there with Weston A. Price. had a whole book on this, went to all these different native populations, saw it in real time. People in the same families were getting smaller jaws, crooked teeth, shorter stature, more health issues. And he reversed it by giving them a bunch of animal fat and meat and raw milk because there were all these nutrients that we need for facial development that only come in animal fat. They only exist in animal fat. Vitamin K2, D3, those sorts of things. They only come in animal fat.
Chris Hall (1:03:41)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:03:42)
And you have to have those calcium as well and, uh, and other sorts of things, but those are the main ones that were missing. he found that you could give them that and reverse it in real time. And you could, you you had, you know, a grandfather, the biggest, strongest, healthiest, biggest jaw. The father was a bit smaller and weaker jaw. The grandson was way weaker, right? But you could breed back. You would start to do successive generations, things like that. You start feeding them properly. The jaws start growing, their bodies start growing. So, you know, just look at that.
Chris Hall (1:03:57)
Thank you.
Yeah
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:04:12)
I mean, it is black and white staring us in the face. You know, as I said with anthropologists, you know, we see pre-agricultural populations, they don’t get any of chronic diseases. We know that they live as long or longer than we do. They get none of these chronic diseases until and unless they start eating a Western diet and then they start getting all these chronic diseases, right? And they go back and the problems go away.
Chris Hall (1:04:32)
All
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:04:38)
Why are we confused about what’s happening here? The only reason we’re confused is because we’re being made to be confused. We’re getting a lot of people being paid influencers and I don’t get paid by any industry. I just have a couple sponsors that’s clearly telegraphed and that’s it. And I’m very clear, I don’t accept sponsors that don’t fit with my message and I generally don’t do much anyway because I just don’t like a bunch of ads. That’s not why I’m doing this.
Chris Hall (1:04:42)
Thank
Thanks.
All right.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:05:08)
You know, it’s
very clear that these people are being paid to say these things. have multi-trillion dollar companies and the food and drug companies that are spending billions of dollars. mean, just Pepsi alone has a $2 billion marketing budget. That’s why every single conference, medical conference and residency and hospital is sponsored by these people, right? Because they can pay for it. And that’s why your doctor has no idea that the research has moved on with statins because
Chris Hall (1:05:23)
Wow.
Great.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:05:37)
drug reps aren’t coming in and say, hey, you know, all that shit that I said about statins, just forget it. But I’d still really like it if you prescribed it because it makes me money. They’re not telling that stuff. They’re telling them the studies that fit their narrative. It’s all cherry pick nonsense. And, and you you get lazy, you know, you just get so sick of studying and taking tests. You just don’t want to do it anymore. And a lot of people don’t, but a lot of people do. A lot of people, you know, if you’re a responsible clinician, you stay on top of the literature in your field.
Chris Hall (1:05:46)
Thanks
All
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:06:05)
And so there’s a lot of people that are coming around to this. so hopefully more and more do as well. ⁓ you know, just, just real quickly with, I meant to say earlier, you know, we were talking about how, you know, people aren’t trying to cure diseases and Goldman Sachs, you know, made that clear. There was a letter from Goldman Sachs to a company called Gilead that, ⁓ Gilead actually came up with something when I was an intern, I was, I was really impressed by them because they came up with a cure for hepatitis C actually cured it.
Chris Hall (1:06:05)
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:06:32)
This is a chronic disease. People had to just take drugs for the rest of their life. They cured this, right? That’s amazing. That’s what they’re supposed to be doing. That’s what we get told and thought that this is what these drug companies are trying to do. All these really nice scientists are trying to save the world and cure these diseases. They’re not trying to do that. In fact, Goldman Sachs pulled them off and said, you really messed up by curing hep C. should never cure a disease because you give them a dose once that’s it. There’s no more hep C. Now we can’t treat hep C. Now we don’t have
Chris Hall (1:06:38)
Go.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:07:01)
50 years of hep C treatments and we lose money. So never do that again. And they basically, you know, you know, it’s suggested, you know, that, that, you know, if you, you don’t make these people happy, you’re not going to invest in you. You’re not, they’re not going to give money to you so that you can do more research and things like that. And so like, okay, so they, you know, change their, their angles. ⁓ but you know, that they’re, this is not going to come from them.
Chris Hall (1:07:01)
Thank
Right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:07:27)
You know, we have to figure this out ourselves. And the easiest way to do that is just look at what people are being. How do we know what lions should eat in the zoo? Because you see what a damn lion eats in the wild. Okay. How do we know what a human should eat? What does a human eat in the wild? What does an Inuit eat? What does a Maasai eat? What does a Nanette eat? What did the Native Americans eat before we slaughtered all the bison? Why did we slaughter all the bison? Because it was knocking out their food supply. And in any war,
Chris Hall (1:07:29)
Right.
Right.
Okay.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:07:57)
You cut off the food system, you cut off the food supply and your supply lines and the army goes away and dies. Why are there over a thousand, why were there over a thousand chicken farms that burned to the ground from arson a couple of years ago? Why is it that meat processing plants have been getting torched and attacked with arson? Why are we saying that there, that cows that have always been in nature and we’ve had hundreds of millions of buffalo.
Chris Hall (1:08:13)
So.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:08:27)
in the Great Plains of America making it the most fertile and fecund land on earth, that that’s somehow now bad for the environment. That’s destroying the environment, it’s destroying the ecosystem, it’s destroying our natural world when it is the natural world. The natural world is plants and animals living in symbiosis. So why is that? Because they’re attacking our food systems as well. And so we have this massive Psy-Op.
Chris Hall (1:08:37)
Thank
All right.
⁓ right.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:08:54)
That, you know, and there’s, there’s a guy who’s a professor of psychology and he said that it works with CIA, all these sorts of things. And he said, there’s all these different points. You know, if something’s a Psyop and being screwed up, but the one thing that is 100 % medicine, we call us patho-pneumonic. If you see this sign, it is that disease. There’s no exceptions that if you see this, it is a Psyop and that’s if you are not allowed to dissent or to argue with, if you say something else. And so.
Chris Hall (1:09:23)
Thank
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:09:23)
You know, we say like,
Chris Hall (1:09:24)
you.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:09:24)
okay, you know, cows destroy the environment. Well, actually, if you look at it, you are a science denier. You’re this, that, and the other deniers. Like that, that’s a Psyop. You’re being, people are being silenced. This is not a, this is not a scientific discussion. This is not trying to find what’s best for people. This is a manipulation tactic. And when you want to take over an area, you cut off the food supply. That’s what we did with the Native Americans. It worked really well. Now they’re on reservations.
Chris Hall (1:09:34)
Right.
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:09:53)
and the land has been taken over and the bison are all dead. And it’s an absolute shame that that happened. They’re doing it still, you know, and we need to watch out for it.
Chris Hall (1:10:01)
Yeah, we’re doing a test now.
Yeah. How can people get a hold of you or follow more about I’ll link to your Instagram and your social media is in this podcast and stuff. But what’s a good place to get a hold of you and learn more about you, Dr. Chaffee?
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:10:16)
Yeah, well, I just have my social media. I have a YouTube channel. It’s just my name, Anthony Chafee MD. My Instagram is the same thing. And I have a podcast, which is the Plant Free MD podcast. I do have a website, just sort of got it going. And it’s just at the moment, it’s called thecorneborelife.com. And so people can check that out. I’ll probably have it also linked in with my name as well. But for now, it’s just TheCornivoreLife.
Chris Hall (1:10:27)
Yeah.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:10:45)
and can sort of find everything on there. have resources there. have papers and studies and links to other lectures and other sorts of resources as well. People want to go and take look at this stuff as well.
Chris Hall (1:10:55)
Perfect and I will link that in the description for you guys, it’s thecornervourlife.com. So I really appreciate you. This has been awesome for me and I hope that my guests get a lot out of it as well. And I hope we, you know, ultimately I hope we make people healthier, you know, because everything that’s coming at us is, you know, pretty wrong. So it’s nice to hear.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:11:04)
That’s correct.
It is,
Chris Hall (1:11:21)
It’s nice to hear the other side and it really just, I mean, when you listen to it, makes perfect sense. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you and hopefully we’ll have you back on.
Dr Anthony Chaffee (1:11:33)
Not a problem. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Chris Hall (1:11:35)
All right.
Thank you.